Episode 7: Grad Studies at NCI and Beyond

In this episode, hear how the National Cancer Institute can support one's graduate studies from Dr. Caitlin Allen and Dr. Samantha Yee, both recipients of the NCI Predoctoral to Postdoctoral Fellow Transition (F99/K00) Award, and Megan Majocha, who is currently completing her Ph.D. research at NCI while enrolled in Georgetown University.

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Episode Guests

Segment 1

Caitlin G. Allen, PhD, MPH is a social and behavioral scientist with expertise in the implementation of evidence-based research to advance precision public health initiatives aimed at reducing health disparities. Her current research focuses on the implementation and sustainability of risk-stratified approaches for cancer prevention and early detection among underserved minority population. She has conducted implementation studies about the use of genomic technologies and family history collection in community and clinical settings, used mixed methods approaches to study models of genetic service delivery and patient and provider understanding of genomics. Dr. Allen is also passionate about training the next generation of scientists in the field of precision public health.

Dr. Samantha (Sam) Yee is currently a postdoctoral scholar at the University of Chicago, as an NCI K00 fellow in the Ovarian Cancer Research (Lengyel/Kenny) Laboratory. Her research focus is to elucidate the mechanisms of ovarian cancer progression and drug resistance by studying the tumor microenvironment. Sam was born in Ottawa, ON, Canada and grew up in Canada as a multi-sport athlete. As an undergraduate student, Sam attended St. Lawrence University in Canton, NY, and majored in Biology and minored in Chemistry. Prior to pursuing her PhD, Sam was a research assistant at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas, TX, in the laboratory of Dr. Vincent Tagliabracci. She received her PhD from the University of Texas Health Science Center of San Antonio in May 2022. Moreover, Sam was a graduate student in the Pharmacology Department, particularly in the Risinger Laboratory with a research focus on studying microtubule targeting agents in breast and ovarian cancers.

Segment 2

Megan Majocha is a Tumor Biology PhD candidate at the National Institutes of Health/Georgetown University. She grew up in Pittsburgh, PA, and attended Western Pennsylvania School for the Deaf and Plum Senior High School. She received her bachelor of science degree in Biology from Gallaudet University. Her research interests include breast cancer metastasis, cancer genomics, and epigenetics. As part of her thesis research, she investigates the role of a tumor suppressor gene in estrogen-negative breast cancer metastasis and its underlying mechanisms. Throughout her career as a Deaf scientist, she realized there was a lack of detailed cancer information available to the Deaf community. She has been interested in science communication to provide access to science to everyone. As a PhD student, she worked with a very limited number of STEM interpreters and learned how crucial it is to advocate for qualified, specialized STEM interpreters. In addition to promoting Deaf awareness in STEM fields, she wants to encourage the younger generation to pursue STEM careers and advocate for themselves.

Show Notes

Episode Transcript

[UPBEAT MUSIC]

OLIVER BOGLER: Hello and welcome to Inside Cancer Careers, a podcast from the National Cancer Institute. I'm your host, Oliver Bogler. I work at the NCI in the Center for Cancer Training. On inside Cancer Careers, we explore all the different ways that people join the fight against disease and hear their stories. Today we are talking to people about their time in graduate school. First up are Dr. Sam Yee and Dr. Caitlin Allen, both of whom were supported by a transition fellowship during graduate school. Then after the break, we speak to Megan Majocha, who is doing her Ph.D. research at the NCI right now. Listen through to the end of the show to hear our guests make some interesting recommendations and where we invite you to take your turn.

OLIVER: At NIH we are interested in supporting early career scientists through the stages of their training and are trying to find the best approach. One of the newer grants that was developed is the NCI pre-doctoral to post-doctoral fellow transition award, or F99/K00. Here to talk to us about this are two folks, Dr. Sam Yee, post-doctoral fellow at the University of Chicago, welcome.

SAMANTHA YEE: Hi. Thank you so much for hosting.

OLIVER: And Dr. Caitlin Allen, assistant professor at the Medical University of South Carolina. Welcome to you.

CAITLIN ALLEN: Thanks, Oliver.

OLIVER: Before we get to the F99/K00, I'd love to hear how you first got interested in science itself. Let's start with you, Sam.

SAMANTHA: So, when I first got interested in science and wanted to do basic science research, I was a senior in high school. I suddenly had fatigue after playing multiple sports events and I started having sharp pain in my pelvic area, and so after going to the Emergency Department a bunch of times, they weren't able to diagnose me except send me away with a bunch of Advil and ibuprofen and so after that, after multiple testing, ultrasounds, they eventually found a solid mass on my ovary. And so what really got me interested in the science aspect was really curious about the diagnosis and prevention of ovarian cancer as there wasn't really much they can do except send me home with a bunch of pills. So that's how I got interested into basic science research.

OLIVER: Wow, that's quite a shock, it must have been. How about you Caitlin?

CAITLIN: So, my interest in science also stems back to some of my formative years. And I have a very vivid memory of a couple of my teachers in 7th grade and then through high school just really instilling a love for asking good questions and some of the, I was thinking about this today, but some of the sort of hand gestures and ways that we were thinking about things, I remember going through the process with Miss Biswas in 7th grade and we had problem, research, hypothesis, experimental design, and conclusion. There was this whole sort of song and dance that we did and we then would have binders about my own science where we would be asking hypothesis driven questions, and so I think that those sort of early days of just curiosity really is what instilled that interest in me and then that has shaped my desire and sort of been shaped in different ways from being a biology major in undergrad to public health and more population focused work in graduate school doctoral work. But really being instilled early on in my education.

OLIVER: So what is the focus of your research at this time?

CAITLIN: So the current work that I'm doing is primarily focused in implementation science and particularly the implementation of population wide genomic screening for hereditary conditions and so we are focused on hereditary breast and ovarian cancer and Lynch syndrome. And so the idea is that if we're able to screen population, at the population level for these conditions, we could identify the nearly two million people that are at risk but don't know that they're at risk for these conditions. And so we've been doing this population level screening at MUSC over the past year plus and I've had the, I came in at a really wonderful time where the program was just getting started and we could really think about the implementation science and the evaluation at the very beginning of the program. And so that's been a big focus of my work, and then also the downstream aspects of that, including you know, once someone's been identified, how do we make sure that they get into the right care and the right services and that they are really able to do all of those additional screenings and recommendations for when they've been identified at higher risk.

OLIVER: And Sam, what's the focus of your post-doc?

SAMANTHA: The focus of my post-doc is looking at ovarian cancer, particularly the secondary site so the omentum particularly, which is a fat curtain an understanding how ovarian cancer progression and drug resistance occurs with these ovarian cancer cells as well as the tumor microenvironment, so really pulling multiple different cell types together and taking an account of the microenvironment to really understand the crosstalk that's going on.

OLIVER: Yeah, so like cancer isn't just you know, a bunch of malignant cells, it's kind of a community of cells, right? Formed in part from the malignant cells but then also some of the body’s cells that are in the neighborhood.

SAMANTHA: Yes, that's right. And a very hot topic deal right now is the immunotherapuetics and so our lab is also currently looking at immune cells as well.

OLIVER: Well thanks very much for describing your, both of your areas of research. Very interesting. If you would be so kind as to cast your mind back to when you were in graduate school, I'm very curious how you came across the F99/K00 award and maybe Sam, I'll start with you, maybe you could tell us what is this award, what does it actually do for you?

So this award allows for the transition of a pre-doctoral student to becoming a post-doc with multiple different resources and opportunities that one, in my opinion would not have gotten, if I am not on this award right now. And so, this award funds up to the last two years of your pre-doctoral and funds up to four years of your post-doctoral experience.

OLIVER: So you were at the University of Texas Health, University of Texas Health in San Antonio, right, Sam, when you applied for the F99 portion of this?

SAMANTHA: Yes, so I was very fortunate that one of my mentors, not my primary research mentor, told me about this award and I'm an international trainee and so I couldn't apply for the other F awards and so once he told me, I started working on this application just through what's called F-Troop, a grant writing workshop to prepare in case I got chosen as a sole nominee of the institution.

OLIVER: Yeah, I should explain that the F99/K00 is still a new program. At the moment, the NCI only has one application cycle a year, which is different, most mechanisms allow three, and we only accept one application from an institution, so there has to be an internal process at that institution to select an applicant, so that's what you're describing, right Sam?

SAMANTHA: Yeah, so I believe some of the components is a Specific Aims page, a letter from your mentor, also a quick bio sketch as well, and that allows the institution where you're at, so for example, UT Health San Antonio then had a committee to decide which of the following applicants would be that sole nominee of the institution.

OLIVER: Caitlin, what was it like for you, you were at Emery, right?

CAITLIN: So, I had a very similar experience as Sam in my application process at Emery. I think I was in the third cohort or so, of nominees, and I was one of the first applicants that was more at the population level whereas others were basic science. And I had a really positive experience where once I went through the process of submitting the internal application, which as Sam said, it was just what Emery had put together. It included a bio sketch and other materials to let the search committee know what your interest was. Then I felt like I had a really strong support network of past applicants at Emery and also my mentors. So I had previously applied for the F31, but it was not successful in the year prior and I felt like that experience of applying to the F31 was helpful in preparing for the F99/K00, but ultimately the F99/K00 was a much better fit for me because I knew that I wanted to go into academia. And so I think that the really beautiful part of the mechanism is that it does give you that doctoral funding but then you are just spring boarded into four years of support, right? And so having that and sort of being able to start talking to post-doctoral institutions and let them know that you have the resources, you have sort of the NCI's backing to move forward into the post-doctoral research spaces is really fantastic and I think sets people up, and sets people apart in this space. So, that was my experience.

OLIVER: Right, so you bring the K00 money with you to your post-doc institution, which obviously as you say, makes you an attractive candidate. What is the process then, do you have to reapply? Do you have to get re-reviewed for the K00 part?

CAITLIN: Sure, so my experience was that you did submit another application. It was not, I'm trying to think back now, because it's been a while, but it was, it did involve, because when you apply initially for the F99/K00, it's okay for the K00 portion of your application to be a little bit amorphous and you’re thinking more big picture, what do I hope my post-doc will look like, et cetera. And so when you get to the point of then actually needing to move into the K00 phase, it is necessary to work with the new institution that you plan to do your post-doc at and really think through and conceptualize what your specific aims are and what you hope to accomplish during your post-doc. And so, I think that was helpful to need to reapply in the sense that it required you to work with your new mentors and start having those conversations and sort of set yourself up for success just stepping in day one to the K00 phase.

OLIVER: Yes, Sam, what was your experience with that phase, you just made that transition relatively recently, right?

SAMANTHA: Yeah, I just started my first year as a post-doc last June and so for the K00 application, like Caitlin was mentioning, you do tailor it more specific to where you're going for your post-doc, and so the opportunity to work with your post-doc mentor very closely on what your science is as well as your professional development was very key and I really enjoyed it because it showed that they really care about your future and it helps you set up for where you want to go for your career.

OLIVER: Yeah, fantastic. And I want to just mention that this review is from the transition review to the K00 happens at the program level at NCI, you don't have to go back to a study section for a new score and review. Talking of program, Dr. Mariam Eljanne is the lead program director for the NCI's F99/K00, and I think she's worked very hard with the community of recipients to bring people together and I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about your experience of that. Has that been helpful to you? Sam.

SAMANTHA: Yeah, so Dr. Mariam Eljanne, has been very, very welcoming as well as very, very helpful in the sense of bringing all the different fellows from both F99 phase and the K00 phase together for these monthly meetings where we can present our research or invite guest speakers and so with that network and the ability of all of our contact information, we can reach out to one another if we see something and that opens up doors for collaboration. And so we really appreciate all that Dr. Mariam has done.

OLIVER: Caitlin, were you able to participate in that as well?

CAITLIN: Yes, I certainly participated and we had a planning committee to prepare for the conference that Sam mentioned, which brought together F99 and K00 awardees. At the time, we did it virtually but it was really an honor and pleasure to be part of kind of thinking through how that conference would look. I think one of the things that's really nice about the way that Mariam has structured the networking is that she's very, very accessible and responsive to questions, which I think we have a lot of those when we're in this early phase, even just figuring out how to engage with the NCI and then the different networking opportunities give us the experience of presenting, right? Presenting to your peers, getting feedback from your peers, and she's also been able to bring in external speakers. I remember an external speaker that was talking about the K to R transition award, right? Which is another mechanism that I think many F99/K00 folks think about and so just having that sort of broad scope of kind of the experience of presenting and getting that opportunity as well as kind of thinking ahead about where your career might go.

OLIVER: Yeah, it's interesting that you mentioned the K99/R00 because the award that you both received is in our minds, hopefully could lead towards such an award and we recently interviewed Dr. Simon Schwörer, a colleague of yours, Sam, at the University of Chicago, who recent transitioned to his R00 phase, opening up his lab there. So, graduate school and being a post-doc are challenging times in your career and I think at the moment in particular, there are some significant challenges. I wonder if you could both address those and tell me a little bit more about that. Let's start with you, Sam.

SAMANTHA: So when I first transitioned from a graduate student to a post-doc, I saw some similar recurring themes of having to start afresh and so it does take time to really know where things are in different labs, so the first couple to maybe first six months, I was still trying to figure out where things were, trying to really meet the core people from each core facility to understand what resources I really had, and make those connections. So that's one of the, I guess, recurring themes of transitioning. Another theme I guess is the independence, so most often than not, I experienced some imposter syndrome and with that I had to really dig deep and remind myself that I do have a PhD, and all my years really counted towards something, so really just believing in yourself and taking things to the next level that you've already created was another theme I guess, that I encountered from that transition.

OLIVER: Thank you for sharing that. Caitlin, I wonder if you have things you could share with us.

CAITLIN: Sure, I would agree with Sam in the sense of kind of this liminal space in part where you have gone from having such intense mentorship and training in your doctoral program to now being almost independent, right? Or you're almost there but you still are relying on your mentors in a lot of ways, while also trying to forge your own path. And so, I think that that's just the reality of where we are in our career and it's okay, but it's certainly something that is relatable and I would imagine other listeners are probably have similar experiences, so definitely validating what Sam mentioned. But I do think that what is nice about the K00 phase is that it gives you time, right, so it really gives you dedicated, protected time to think and so I remember early in my doctoral days, being so grateful that I had the time and space to think and to really put together conceptual models, et cetera, and so I still have that, right? Like that's nice because there are, there's not as many competing demands as what may come in the future as you move further along in your career, you know, expected to add on service and teaching, et cetera, et cetera. So I do, I do appreciate that element of the K00.

OLIVER: Yeah, thank you. So as I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, the F99/K00 is still a relatively new mechanism and we are trying to innovate and think of ways to build mechanisms like that to really help people. But I wonder if you have any feedback for us. What is it about the F99/K00 that we could do better or that we could improve? Caitlin.

CAITLIN: So I would say that in my recollection of the transition, it did feel a little bit rushed. And I wonder if there is an opportunity to, I almost wanted a summer break, which may sound kind of silly, but I just recall trying to finish my doctoral coursework, doing a ton of paperwork to finish my dissertation and wrap all of that up, while also needing to think about moving and apply, you know, the shift and transition and it all worked out, it was all fine, but I would love sort of a little bit of breathing room in between that F99/K00. Another piece is that during the shift to the K00 as we talked about earlier, you needed to do an internal application back to the NCI for review about what you were going to do for the K00 and to do that, I ended up working with the grant administrators at my K00 institution and that was tough because I had no real, I mean my mentor of course had ties, but I had no real personal ties to the institution and so I did feel like that was a little bit awkward to be asking so much of an institution and of grant administrators, even before I was there.

OLIVER: Yeah, thank you for sharing those things. Those are characteristics of the mechanism, so there's a limited time window between when you satisfy the requirements for your doctoral degree there's a window by which you have had to then start your post-doc, and I do hear what you say about the grants support team. That's really because the K00 award is held by your new institution and so they, unfortunately they have to engage so, but we could certainly help on the program side perhaps grants administrators have never come across this particular mechanism before and that might be helpful.

CAITLIN: I think that is kind of the, you hit the nail on the head there, it's that the grant, it was such a new grant at the time, that they're like K what? You know, so as sort of it becomes more commonplace, then administrative offices will know what to do or have the ability to sort of make that smoother. But like we talked about, this is, it's new, it's developing, which is wonderful to get feedback.

OLIVER: And we thank you for breaking new ground. Sam, your feedback please.

SAMANTHA: Okay, so what I really did like about the F99/K00 webinars is that they provide a lot of information on how to apply, but I think some emphasis could go more on yes, you apply for the F99/K00 but later on, that same K00 application just goes internally and it follows a certain timeline that you have to submit it by so the reminder of always planning ahead is great in order to get those certain deadlines done. And like Caitlin was mentioning, you transition from your pre-doctoral to post-doctoral, I remember just moving within a week and then starting one thing to take account of too is how your post-doc institution hires new post-docs, because you'll either be back paid or you might not be able to start until your actual department can hire you. So those are some things to take in account of when you're transitioning and I think that we could just bring awareness when fellows are talking to potential applicants and things like that, just to spread the word.

OLIVER: Yeah, that's good practical advice, thank you. Thank you both. Last question, let's start with you, Sam, people are listening right now might be wondering about this mechanism, what would your advice be to someone perhaps recently started in grad school or in the research part of their grad school and they're interested in the F99.

SAMANTHA: I would say, start planning ahead and thinking about all the different materials and really just value the opportunity of applying because if you do get it, your opportunities are unlimited and so I feel really, really thankful for being a fellow of this prestigious award because I'm able to have all these resources and basically conduct some translational science which I wouldn't have been able to do, I think, without this award. So just plan ahead, do your best and reach for the stars because this award can really get you places in my opinion.

OLIVER: Thank you. Caitlin.

CAITLIN: I would say, I mean as Sam mentioned, some of the more administrative sides of this award are really helpful to think about early and work closely with the grant team within your institution. Just having gone through the process of applying to a Federal grant is, makes you light years ahead of a lot of folks, and so I think that that's good advice. I would also say that it's important to be resilient in your doctoral training and moving into the post-doc and I say this because you know, I had the experience of applying to the F31 and not receiving that. Which was difficult but also set me up really nicely to then move forward with an F99/K00 mechanism. So that's something where it's both being resilient but also being able to pivot and identify mechanisms that are appropriate for your interests and your career stage, and working closely with your mentors and past recipients at your institution. Also the F99/K00 network is amazing. I, have had potential applicants reach out to me and just ask about my experience and we're all, I think, very happy to talk about it, work through logistics, think about science, etcetera, and so kind of tapping into that network is fantastic as you're thinking about your application.

OLIVER: Thank you, that's really good advice as well, thank you. I would say also if you're interested in this mechanism, you might explore whether there is already a process at your university in your graduate school for selecting the nominees, so you might check in with the Dean's Office. If there isn't a mechanism and if there hasn't yet been an applicant from your university, we are very happy to receive applications and I would recommend that you reach out to program to engage and ask some questions there. So, we'll put links in the show notes for the award and the F99 mechanism and you can check it out there. So thank you to both of you, Caitlin and Sam, thank you very much for being with us today and sharing your insights and your experience.

SAMANTHA: Great, thank you so much.

CAITLIN: Thanks for having us.

[UPBEAT MUSIC]

OLIVER: Cancer scientists do all kinds of interesting things, and one of them is to work on the regulation of drugs and medical devices at the US Food and Drug Administration, or FDA. Others shepherd discoveries from the lab to the bedside which requires knowledge of regulatory processes. If you are interested in this work, we have a program at NCI and here to tell us more about it is Glorivee Pagan-Mercado from our Office of Training and Education.

GLORIVEE PAGAN-MERCADO: It is a fellowship with a bit of a strange name. It is called the Interagency Oncology Task Force Fellowship or IOTF for short, because it is between agencies of the federal government including FDA and NCI.

The program trains scientists in research and research-related regulatory review, policies, and regulations.

Fellows learn to build awareness of regulatory requirements into the early stages of the medical product development process and to develop strategies to improve planning throughout research and regulatory review.

OLIVER: That is interesting. Where do graduates of the IOTF program go to practice what they have learned?

GLORIVEE: Well, some transition to regulatory work at FDA or in industry while others take what they have learned back to their research work where it helps them plan for eventual commercialization and regulatory approval of their discoveries. You can see the comments of several IOTF alums on our webpage.

OLIVER: Are there applications dates our listeners should know about?

GLORIVEE: Applications open on May first and close on June fifth, with a potential start day of September first. There are 4 different tracks depending on the applicants background and interests. For more information please visit our webpage – you can search for IOTF and NCI and there you can also see how to reach out to us if you have questions.

OLIVER: Thanks, Glorivee – we will also put a link in our show notes, and I am sure if people want to reach out to you to find out more they can.

GLORIVEE: thank you.

OLIVER: Before the break, we spoke to two scientists supported by NCI through extramural grants during their graduate work. Now I'm delighted to welcome Megan Majocha, a graduate student who's doing her PhD research in a lab at the NCI. Welcome.

MEGAN MAJOCHA: Hi, thank you for inviting me to be here. I'm really happy to be here today.

OLIVER: Megan, you're talking to us through interpreters today. Is that correct?

MEGAN: Yes. Yes, I'll explain that briefly. I have two sign language interpreters who are working with us currently. One interpreter is going to be speaking for me. She will be my voice while I sign, and the other interpreter will be signing for Oliver.

OLIVER: Great. So, Megan, I'm always curious to learn what draws people to do science. How did that happen for you?

MEGAN: I've always been very fascinated with science ever since I was a little girl. When I was in middle school and high school, that's when I really started to take extra science credits that weren't necessary for my degree, because I was just so fascinated with the science world. I was interested in forensics, anatomy, really the whole gamut, the whole range of the scientific field. But I wasn't sure what exactly it was that I was interested in. I did always find myself curious about everything, and wanting to know the reasoning behind everything. What is the explanation for this? I would Google things. I would Google why something happened. I would always ask my parents why, why, why everything. I needed to know the reason behind it, and so, I guess there's always been a little bit of a scientist within me. When I got into college, and I had to pick my major, and figure out what I wanted to focus on, I had picked biology. As time went on, I really became fascinated with genetics, but there's a lot that can be done when you do genetic research, and I wasn't sure what exactly I wanted to do with that interest of mine. So, I decided to go ahead and apply for a Postbac opportunity here at NCI, and this was right after I had finished my undergrad in college. That's when I fell into the cancer genetic research world, and that's where I'm at currently.

OLIVER: So, what prompted you to do a Postbac?

MEGAN: So, when I graduated college, I had my mind set that I had wanted to go to medical school. I wanted to become a gynecologist. However, when I was looking into medical school, it was a very in-depth application process that I wasn't quite ready for yet. And I knew that there would be many different opportunities other than just medical school, so I wasn't sure where exactly I wanted to go. So, my Gallaudet advisor had suggested that I should apply for a Postbac opportunity here at NIH, and that's what I did.

OLIVER: So, an opportunity to experience research.

MEGAN: Yes, correct. Yes. During college, I only had one outer lab experience or internship experience. I did have many other opportunities with wet labs. I didn't have many opportunities with wet labs, but I did with qualitative research. So, I needed more wet lab bench work experience, and that's what led me to taking advantage of the position and the opportunity here to gain that experience.

OLIVER: So, I'm going guess you liked it because you signed up for a PhD?

MEGAN: Yes. Really, I fell into it quite quickly, and after several months of my Postbac, I went ahead and I applied for my PhD. Well, I wasn't quite sure what field I wanted to go into whether it was cancer biology or human genetics. So, I applied for both programs, and then I decided that I would pick the Georgetown NIH Partnership Program, which is a field of tumor biology.

OLIVER: Yeah, so you mentioned the partnership program. Obviously NIH, NCI, are not universities. They cannot give you a degree. So, your degree is coming from Georgetown, but you chose to do your research in the lab at NCI.

MEGAN: Yes. It's a very unique program that is offered here in partnership with Georgetown. I didn't know about this program until I saw a few other graduate students. In my lab, I work in Dr. Ken Hunter's lab, and there were two grad students who were involved in the GPP. That's the Graduate Partnership Program. When I was able to see them involved in that, I became really interested in the program because I really enjoy working here at NCI. The accessibility is fantastic. The research here is just top notch, and so, I decided to apply to Georgetown because they do have a few -- NIH has a few partnerships with a few different universities, but I picked Georgetown University. All of my class course credits, I took at Georgetown. My lab rotations were a mixture between Georgetown labs as well as NIH labs, and then I picked a lab here at NIH to continue my thesis research.

OLIVER: So, what's it like being a grad student on the NIH campus?

MEGAN: Really, it's just the perfect opportunity being a student here. The research is very quick-moving. There are amazing resource opportunities here, and the interpreting accessibility. Oh, well, another reason I did pick this program I should add in specifically at NIH is because of that accessibility. It's guaranteed accessibility with highly qualified interpreters that are available on campus here. So, my experience has been really amazing thus far.

OLIVER: I'm going to ask what are researching. What's the focus of your thesis work?

MEGAN: I am currently researching a more in-depth mechanism of a very poorly characterized gene an estrogen receptor negative breast cancer metastasis. And so, I'm analyzing how this gene impacts metastasis and what the mechanisms are behind the gene that are affecting the metastasis.

OLIVER: That sounds like a really important project - metastatic breast cancer, particularly, estrogen-receptor negative is a tough disease.

MEGAN: Yes, and it's a very -- there's very poor treatments available for this disease. We need to we need to improve the current availability of these treatments.

OLIVER: Now you mentioned the availability of skilled interpreters is one of the reasons you chose this program. You've also been advocating in that area. Can you tell us a little bit about that, please?

MEGAN: Yes. So, when I was in my Postbac year, I really didn't work with many interpreters prior to my Postbac because I went to Gallaudet University which had complete communication access. My professors all signed. My peers all used sign language. So, I didn't need an interpreter during my undergrad. So, when I got here, I wasn't sure what to expect. Kent Hunter's lab already had a deaf biologist working here, and he's been here for quite a long time. So, he had already established a team of scientific interpreters that he had been working with for many years and had developed over time. So, as I joined the lab, I saw how the interpreters picked up the scientific sign language, and many interpreters who work here have worked here for a very long time. So, they're knowledgeable about what our lab research does, the vocabulary that comes up, as well as our language needs and preferences. When I left my Postbac and I went to grad school, I couldn't bring the interpreters who worked here with me because they were already in the lab with the biologists working. So, it was really tough to look for scientific interpreters. I didn't know who else knew science. So, I was kind of stuck in a position, and I was asking around, and nobody seemed to have any recommendations for me. For grad school, my one request was that I had consistent interpreters. I wanted interpreters who were available to interpret for me every single day. I didn't want one interpreter for one day, another interpreter for the next day and have that constant turnover of interpreters in my classes. So, the consistency was better, because the interpreters were then able to pick up the language and learn as we went on. So, I was able to find two interpreters that worked with me consistently through my schooling, both of them did not know science prior to working with me. They had no scientific background, but they were able to pick up the language and learn with a positive attitude and the motivation to learn my language and to learn the science directly from me, as well as from internet resources. So, they had worked -- we've worked with each other for about four years now. And they are considered scientific interpreters because they know how to interpret science.

OLIVER: Yeah, one thing, I learned from reading on this area from the materials you've also shared with the community, is that I guess, there are not necessarily signs for scientific terms that are developed yet, right? So new vocabulary hasn't yet been included into the American Sign Language. Is that correct?

MEGAN: Yes, there are a lot of scientific terminologies that need to be fingerspelled, which can be very difficult to spell out everything. So, we have developed our own signs to go with the words. We call them our lab signs that makes sense to the people within our lab, but we are open to changing those signs if we learn something that's better, maybe from another deaf scientist, anywhere in the country. But in general, deaf scientists have been developing STEM-based sign language dictionaries over the last several years, and it's getting better and better every day. It's slow moving, but it's getting better.

OLIVER: So, are there essential resources that have been created?

MEGAN: Yes. I plan to share that for the ending part of the segment.

OLIVER: Okay. I don't want to get ahead of myself, but it sounds like a real challenge, right?

MEGAN: Yes, but it's very rewarding as well.

OLIVER: And Megan, I understand that you also are interested in science communication in general, right. You write for a blog called OncoBites?

MEGAN: Yes, that's correct. Let me think? I started writing for them, when I first started grad school, in my first year or two, I realized that there was a gap between the research and public knowledge, especially with the deaf community. There aren't many information resources available within sign language, they're always they're all written in English, and the deaf community likes to see both the ASL, as well as the written English, and they want to have both available to them. So, that's when I started to realize and kind of get into the field of communication of science within the deaf community, but not exclusively, the deaf community -- for a general audience. With the in-depth specific terminology, specifically related to cancer research, there's a lot of large words or words that the general public just aren't familiar with. And so, I saw an opportunity arise with OncoBites, which is a small group of scientist, patients, advocates and really anyone within the cancer field can write an article for OncoBites based off of their specialty in lay terms, so everyone can understand. So, I just started writing for them last year. I've written a few articles for them, sharing my knowledge and practicing my science communication skills, which I've really enjoyed.

OLIVER: Megan, I'm curious. This just occurred to me but there's a revolution in artificial intelligence going on, and one of the things that these new technologies are able to do is to take large amounts of data and summarize them and make them more digestible. I wonder, how is that being received in the deaf community and are there technologies being developed to make it easier for people who cannot sign to communicate with deaf people?

MEGAN: Yes, and no. So, technology is still not perfect. We still need interpreters to communicate, that's the best approach for communication, but for example with the iPhone, I believe Android, as well. The iPhone has live captioning features that will automatically set up. For example, if I run into somebody who's hearing and they are speaking, they can speak to my phone and write out a transcript for me, and I can text back to them. However, that's not the best approach, but it is slightly improving every day. So, I think so. Yes.

OLIVER: You said earlier that deaf people prefer to see sign language or signing up if I'm saying that right.

MEGAN: Yes. So, we are bilingual. We know English as well as ASL. So, it's nice to see everything in ASL as well as English. English, written English, is typically not the first language for deaf people, because we learned sign language first. So, ASL is our native language. So, it's just natural to us to have access to both is to have accessibility to everybody in the community.

OLIVER: That makes sense. I guess there's a lot more work yet to be done.

MEGAN: Yes, however, work does tend to move pretty quickly as things get developed, and there's new inventions. It's always fast moving.

OLIVER: Great. I'm curious. What's next for you. How far are you through your graduate school?

MEGAN: Yes, I'm about to start my fifth year; I can't believe it.

OLIVER: So where are you headed next, or you're not sure about that yet?

MEGAN: I'm still unsure of what I'm doing next. I have two pathways that I really love doing. The first is I wouldn't mind continuing with research. I wouldn't mind actively researching and continuing that field as well as the science communication as we've talked about, and more related to consultations, as well as project management within science communication, or grant writer, or scientific writer of some sort. I'm not really sure. I'm still investigating what opportunities there are for me.

OLIVER: Well, I think we need qualified scientists in all these different areas. So, I hope you have a chance to explore them, those options.

MEGAN: Yes, me too. I'm excited to continue to explore these options.

OLIVER: In the Center for Cancer Training, where I work, we provide some opportunities for grad students and postdocs on campus to learn a little bit about these different career paths. I hope you've had a chance to make use of those.

MEGAN: Yes, I'm planning to go to the Career Center Symposium very soon, and I'm looking forward to that.

OLIVER: Great, finally, then I just wonder what advice you might have to our audience who are thinking about a career in cancer, what would you say to someone who was just a few years behind you?

MEGAN: I would advise them to take advantage of every opportunity that's presented to them. I would also tell them to stay flexible and to have resiliency. Things are going to change. The unexpected will happen. You're going to go through really tough as well as really good times and just stay the course, and it's important to keep resilient and persevere through all of that.

OLIVER: Great. I think that's very good advice. Thank you. I could use that myself.

MEGAN: Yes.

OLIVER: Well, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast and sharing your experiences and your work with us.

MEGAN: Thank you so much for inviting me to participate in the podcast. I'm honored to be here.

OLIVER: Now it's time for a segment we call Your Turn because it's a chance for our listeners to send in a recommendation that they would like to share. If you're listening, then you're invited to take your turn, send us a tip for a book, or a video, a podcast, or a talk that you found amusing or inspirational or interesting. You can send these to us at nciicc@nih.gov. Record a voice memo and send it along. We may just play it in an upcoming episode. Now I'd like to invite our guests to take their turn. Let's start with you, Sam.

SAMANTHA: So, this is a little different than a talk or a book, but I do want to recommend, I guess, a community that's out there, if you do enjoy doing dance or doing something active. So, there's a community out there called Diva Dance, and it's more for adult dance classes. And so, basically, it's really fun. You don't need to have previous dance experience, and you can basically go for an hour of cardio and then have friends and go to brunch and other social events. So, if you do like dance, which is what I've done before, as an ex-professional, NHL cheerleader, diva dance is really fun and dancing with everyone with different skills is something I like to do on the weekend just to stay active.

OLIVER: That's fantastic. Is there a website for this group?

SAMANTHA: I believe it's www.divadance.com, and there should be different locations in different areas of the United States.

OLIVER: Great. Well, we'll put a link in the show notes. Caitlin?

CAITLIN: I'm going to have to sign up for Diva Dance, Sam. So, when I was thinking about this, my recommendation is to go sit at a library. I recently rediscovered my local library. It reopened and has been having a bunch of community events. I have a young son, and we just spent a Saturday morning, at the library, and it was so lovely. So, take some time. Go to your local library and just enjoy.

OLIVER: And Megan, as you know, at the end of our show, we always invite our guests to make recommendations about something interesting or cool that they'd like to share with the audience. We call this segment Your Turn, so I invite you to take your turn.

MEGAN: Yes, so I'm excited to recommend Atomic Hands. The sign for that is what I just demonstrated Atomic Hands. It's a small nonprofit organization that is established by two deaf women scientists, and it's an amazing resource for everyone. And their website is AtomicHands.com, and it includes various different resources including ASL STEM dictionaries, ASL STEM signs within ASL videos, ASL stem news. So different events related to science and current events, and there are some small, short clips of educational things explaining different science activities, what's going on behind them. It follows a different scientific process. So, for example, climate change and how that happens, what the impact is currently, and all of it is done within sign language. So, there's ASL, as well as English, all their videos are captioned. They're really fascinating to watch. They also include a large list of deaf STEM people. Well, people in STEM scientists, educators, mathematicians, engineers. They have a list of different people with their bios, as well as contact information, which I think is a really great resource that should be checked out.

OLIVER: That's such a great recommendation. We'll put a link in the show notes, I really appreciate you sharing that with us. Thank you.

MEGAN: Sure.

OLIVER: Well, thank you very much.

MEGAN: Thank you.

[UPBEAT MUSIC]

OLIVER: That’s all we have time for on today’s episode of Inside Cancer Careers! Thank you for joining us and thank you to our guests.

We want to hear from you – your stories, your ideas and your feedback are always welcome. And you are invited to take your turn to make a recommendation we can share with our listeners. You can reach us at NCIICC@nih.gov.

Inside Cancer Careers is a collaboration between NCI’s Office of Communications and Public Liaison and the Center for Cancer Training.

It is produced by Angela Jones and Astrid Masfar and Edited by Janette Goeser.

A special thanks to Lakshmi Grama and Sabrina Islam-Rahman.

Join us every first and third Thursday of the month when new episodes can be found wherever you listen – subscribe so you won’t miss an episode. I'm your host Oliver Bogler from the National Cancer Institute and I look forward to sharing your stories here on Inside Cancer Careers.

If you have questions about cancer or comments about this podcast, email us at NCIinfo@nih.gov or call us at 800-422-6237. And please be sure to mention Inside Cancer Careers in your query.

Episode 7: Grad Studies at NCI and Beyond

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Episode Guests

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Show Notes

Segment 1

Segment 2

Your Turn: Guests Recommendations

Episode Transcript